Victimization, Moving through Darkness and Confrontation Before Forgiveness
Tuesday Oct 23, 2007
8:20 p.m.
Seth… Good evening.
Group… Good evening.
Seth… A pleasure to have all of you here this evening. We shall do a small bit of housekeeping that I believe will be necessary. The general question that I would ask first would be addressed to Jasmine and Isabella, how is “The Secret” coming?
Jasmine… Well, I haven’t gotten back to…
Seth… Well, I already know that, that’s one, next?
Isabella… You already know the answer.
Seth… Well, what is the answer please?
Isabella… It’s not going.
Seth… It’s not going. I would strongly suggest that both of you make a large attempt…
Jasmine… I’ll try to…
Seth… to get back to the idea. One other thing for our friend Frank when any soul ends their incarnation, and they return to a higher plane that which they did not have on the physical plane is automatically restored to a vim and vigor immediately upon the ending of their incarnation. I believe you can understand that, correct? (This was in response to discussion at dinner and the fact that Frank’s mother-in-law had recently died of Alzheimer’s disease.)
Frank… Correct.
Seth… As for our friend Arthur, although it is a great temptation for you to attempt at times to share, one must be very careful in giving so that one is not taken advantage of. And giving in this instance I do not mean in a monetary sense but in a sense of just of being kind to anyone else because people who are used to taking will tend to take heavy advantage of your good nature if you understand what I am saying. Do you follow?
Arthur… I follow and I do.
Seth… You may mull it over a bit at your own leisure.
Seth… Kaetorina, you had a question.
Stephanie… Can you talk about how one approaches the idea of forgiveness?
Seth… Give us a moment. Under our subject of Change the human condition, meaning those who inhabit this small corner of the physical plane tend of course to move through a great portion of their existence in darkness. Now it is important here that one understands the concept that I have just described. Therefore, we will require a working idea if you will of moving through darkness. Betty? (Often Seth would engage us with a question to make us think and therefore absorb the material better. It is suggested that the reader also think of an answer to the above before moving on.)
Betty… Yes?
Seth… Would you like to go first or last?
Betty… I didn’t hear the original question, but I think in terms…
Seth… The original question is simple: What does it mean by my statement that is what does it mean to you about the idea of moving through darkness? Most individuals do so.
Betty… Probably of, kind of living without a certain level of awareness; kind of going through the motions as opposed to fully experiencing.
Seth… You may now take it (The microphone.) and go ahead.
Isabella… I kind of agree with Betty, living under a shadow of negativity and in regards to not allowing change which I think forgiveness is just an offshoot of change. If you don’t forgive, you really only hurt yourself so in that case you live in darkness because how can you become enlightened if you are constantly angry and holding a grudge?
Arthur… I agree with both people. The idea of the lack of enlightenment, the idea of um, moving without a sense of…
Seth… Speak loudly so that (it will be recorded.)
Arthur… moving without a sense of being able to feel or see one’s way through, not being guided.
Frank… This is my own words, ignorance, not knowing and that not knowing about how things work, that there is some, some suffering that goes along with that.
Jasmine… I think it simply means living your life completely out of touch with what is really important and what’s really happening around you. And as Betty said, just totally not in awareness with what is going on.
Shanna… I see it as; you know living your life with pent up anger that you are keeping inside, and you know and holding grudges towards people.
Stephanie… I kind of see it as being blind and if you are blind, you can’t see doors and choices and so a lot of stagnation and not much movement.
Seth… While I disagree with the words themselves, the concepts that you have all given tend to convey, if you will, the idea that your horizons are not broad enough. There are very few individuals on the physical plane who do not routinely move through darkness. Very few individuals do not have this difficulty. The human condition as it is causes one to see and to participate routinely in events that shape and form the physical plane as you know it. When one is not open to the subtleties that the universe provides one is then limited by their own viewpoint.
Isabella… Can you give an example?
Seth… A good example here would be the simple idea that you Isabella routinely get angry or annoyed or bothered when individuals will point something out to you more than once. Now, you take this as an insult or criticism because what you do not see is that you have made the others, meaning your community, into a victim of that which you perceive is necessary for yourself. In other words, if you state that something will happen, and you routinely accomplish that task when individuals will not be able to point out to you for a second or a third time something that needs to be done by your hand. When your habitual nature is that of becoming lackadaisical, not meaning that you are lazy, but you will eventually get to the task, do you understand what I am saying here?
Isabella… Yeah, I don’t see how this has anything to do with not being open to the subtleties that the universe provides.
Seth… The universe provides that which you require. The subtleties there are manifested by the repeating nature of events. When for example you do not do something, the universe will give you a subtle hint by allowing you to do something else. When for instance you do not do this the second time or the third time the universe says because of what you are creating let’s do this a fourth or a fifth time. Do you understand what I mean here?
Isabella… Yes.
Seth… Therefore, when one is not contractually obligated to fulfill that which you as an individual require the universe will automatically since you are the creative force behind this provide you with another bit or opportunity for advancement. So, individuals here move through darkness because they do not create an environment that allows themselves to prosper by gaining knowledge and experience in a fair and just manner.
Stephanie… Through darkness because they don’t create an environment by gaining knowledge?
Seth… By gaining knowledge in a fair and just manner.
Stephanie… And experience.
Seth… And experience.
Isabella… Individuals do not create an environment which allows them to prosper?
Jasmine… No, when individuals move through darkness because they don’t create an environment by gaining knowledge and…
Seth… experience.
Isabella… How did that get to, allows them to prosper?
Seth… You do not prosper because you are moving through darkness, and you do not gain the experience that the universe has provided in a fair and just manner.
Jasmine… I don’t get it. They don’t create an environment that…
Isabella… That would allow them to prosper because they are moving through darkness.
Seth… When you, for example Jasmine, constantly worry about anything are you moving through an area where you are providing yourself an ability to grow and to prosper?
Jasmine… No, when I am worried?
Seth… When you are worried, correct. So that is exactly what I have stated.
Jasmine… So, individuals move through darkness because they don’t create an environment that allows them to prosper.
Seth… To prosper.
Jasmine… Allows them to prosper…
Seth… In a fair…
Jasmine… By gaining…
Seth… By gaining experience…
Jasmine… By gaining knowledge and experience in a fair and just manner.
Seth… May we move along? Now, when this occurs, the tendency for individuals is to point a finger if you will, in terms of anger at someone else. It is the response of that individual that becomes necessary for our giver of bad news if you will, victimizer is another word, to succeed. Now what does this mean?
Jasmine… Hmm.
Seth… I am aware but you have to think about this. When someone accuses you of anything, your response… (Stephanie must have responded in some way.) Would you like to take over?
Stephanie… I’ve just heard it so many times, prove it, show me how.
Seth… No, that was not what I was going to say but you happen to be correct (Stephanie laughs.) but in this instance we shall leave that go. Your response allows that individual to victimize you over and over again. Most individuals become angry and certainly upset with our victimizer. They attempt to fight back on the victimizer’s terms. Obviously, they cannot succeed. So, they are still in the dark if you will; they are moving through a portion of their own existence that mandates failure. Now, the question arises, since you cannot succeed how do you recover from this situation? Most individuals tend to gloss it over or cover it up; their refusal to recognize that which they require keeps them in the shadow of their own existence. Yes Jasmine?
Jasmine… I don’t think I understand. Most individuals tend to gloss over or cover up their refusal to recognize that which they require…
Seth… That which they require.
Stephanie… It keeps them in the shadow of their own existence.
Seth… This keeps them in the shadow of their own existence. Do you understand that?
Jasmine… I don’t know who the victimizer is in this whole scenario. The person who has made you angry?
Frank… Someone who is angry at you…
Jasmine… Is the victimizer?
Frank… And now you fight back perhaps.
Isabella… So, who is accusing you of something?
Frank… You did this to me; you didn’t treat me well!
Jasmine… I get that.
Isabella… They’re a victimizer. That’s who the victimizer is.
Stephanie… Well, we can use my father for an example. You know he; I mean I was screaming at him but let’s just say the way he bullies me. The way that my father would bully me when I would want to bring up something about him that would upset me so he would want to point fingers at me, what I didn’t do for him, what I did wrong, what I wasn’t right about. He would victimize me so that, I mean that is the covering up that he would…
Jasmine… Use you or no?
Stephanie… No, no, no, he would, you know that’s how he would live in the shadow of his own existence by never recognizing that he was a victimizer and refused to ever listen or take any responsibility for any of his actual actions. The victimization that went on and on and on and on in a hundred different ways; you know his statement of I’ve always been there for you is him living in the shadow of his existence.
Shanna… I thought it was opposite. I thought that when you’re having that conflict with your dad for example, and he is saying to you whatever you’re being victimized really.
Stephanie… Em hmm.
Shanna… So, what Seth has said, how do you recover from you being victimized by your father?
Frank… Since you are not recognizing what you need.
Shanna… So, you’re the one really glossing it over.
Stephanie… Well, both are…
Seth… No, in this instance they are correct, Kaetorina.
Stephanie… Both are.
Seth… You’re the one who glossed it over. He is defending himself. He does not listen to you.
Stephanie… Right, but isn’t he glossing over?
Seth… This is where the idea of the object of saying prove it comes in. That is what you should say to him. Prove it.
Stephanie… Oh, yeah.
Frank… When you don’t say prove it, you’re in the shadow.
Seth… You become in the shadows of your own existence because what you have done is allowed someone else to gain the upper hand.
Stephanie… Right, but isn’t that also for him living in the shadow of, if you’re not…
Seth… No, he is very happy as to where he is living, he wins.
Shanna… Because he’s victimizing you.
Stephanie… But doesn’t the victimizer always live in the shadow of their…
Seth… Difference…
Stephanie… They’re not aware of any…
Seth… It’s not whether they are aware of something or not. They have a perception that they can justify.
Stephanie… Em hmm.
Seth… And when they justify their perception, they don’t have to go any further.
Stephanie… Because they believe it.
Seth… You asked a question on forgiveness; we have not come to that point yet.
Stephanie… Right.
Seth… We have to define how we get to the idea of forgiveness.
Stephanie… Okay, so then if I’m, so I by my not ever confronting him about his victimization that I am covering over my anger, my, all that stuff that I felt.
Seth… And what happened when it finally bursts forth as the damn?
Stephanie… (Laughs.) It exploded and burst forth. (Laughs.) Right so it’s an explosion once it is uncovered.
Seth… It can be.
Frank… Only because it’s so many years and so intense.
Stephanie… Right.
Frank… If you weren’t living in the shadows and saying, don’t do this to me, this is what you are doing and I don’t like this, I require something else, you’re now no longer in the shadow.
Stephanie… Em hmm.
Frank… And you know what’s bothering you.
Stephanie… Right. Well, you can know and still not do anything about it.
Frank… But you cover it up, so you don’t know.
Seth… Now, to go on so as you cover up the idea that has been presented to you, you become entrenched if you will with the notion that this is the way life is. The difficulty here is to first recognize the simple fact that you are having difficulty with others. It is more comfortable for most individuals to pretend or falsify what they perceive as fact.
Isabella… Like in…
Seth… Again, the answer here and I will come to you in a second, when Kaetorina looks at her father and allows for years in this instance his bravado to replace her own needs then she has covered up, lived in darkness and falsified that which needed to be uncovered. Yes?
Isabella… I’m trying to put this into perspective between my ex-husband and myself.
Seth… What do you need to put into perspective?
Isabella… Well, I’m trying to get this whole thing in that area and maybe help me understand this a little bit more because I felt as though I was victimized by him.
Seth… Were you or were you not?
Isabella… I was so…
Seth… How did he victimize you? Let’s start with that question.
Isabella… Well, he walked out on me.
Seth… Let’s go back even further.
Isabella… Um, he deprived me of things that I required or wanted within a relationship.
Seth… Let us go back to the simplest of all ideas. If someone is dissatisfied what is your responsibility?
Isabella… To make yourself satisfied.
Seth… No.
Isabella… Or to figure out what it is you’re not satisfied about.
Seth… If I am married to you and I am dissatisfied with something that you are doing or…
Isabella… Talk, to acknowledge.
Seth… To at least be correct enough to state there is a problem. Did he do this?
Isabella… No.
Seth… And since he did not do this were you aware that there were difficulties?
Isabella… No.
Seth… Therefore, he made you a victim and you were not even aware of it.
Isabella… Right.
Seth… (To Stephanie.) Do you not see the difficulty here with William? Now, may I continue?
Isabella… Please well wait with?
Seth… Go ahead, yes with you.
Isabella… Yeah, you can continue with me.
Seth… Go ahead.
Isabella… Oh, because you said it was more comfortable for most individuals to pretend or falsify what they perceive as fact. So was Jacob…
Seth… Did you not since he never gave you the information, falsify what your beliefs were?
Isabella… Yeah, I thought everything was fine. Is that falsifying?
Seth… Of course, it is because somewhere by your own actions and own statements you knew things were not correct. There were things that were missing.
Isabella… Very deep down.
Seth… Were there things that were missing?
Isabella… Now, now, yes there were things that were missing, now that I am able to look back on it. I was not able to see it at the time.
Seth… I did not say that you are going to see this immediately, but you now understand the sentence.
Isabella… But what about for him?
Seth… We’re not concerned with him…
Isabella… No but…
Seth… Is he sitting here?
Isabella… No but I am. I want to know what he falsified in his own mind because you said it’s more comfortable to deal with the pretend. So, was he falsifying in his own mind his actions?
Seth… He justified. Remember he’s the victimizer. He doesn’t have to falsify anything.
Isabella… Right.
Seth… He victimizes you…
Jasmine… Who does the falsifying? The victim?
Seth… Of course.
Jasmine… Can’t the victimizer falsify also?
Seth… Well, the victimizer doesn’t have to, he justifies his actions by, look at what you did or did not do.
Shanna… You falsify by buying into what they are saying.
Seth… Correct.
Shanna… And say this is okay.
Seth… It is the similar example that one may use of someone who does not have a job and say well there is nothing out there for me!
Shanna… Right, right, they buy into that.
Seth… They buy into that. Do you understand? Now, in movements through darkness there are of course comes a time when somebody does something that will annoy or bother you and most individuals will state, that bothered me. And then the original individual our victimizer will say you know you are right I can understand that. I’m sorry.
Frank… (Said softly.) They never do that.
Seth… Let us assume that they do, and you will say, thank you. What has then occurred? And the answer is nothing. Nothing has occurred. And nothing has occurred because the symptomatology of the incident or incidences plural has never been addressed and what you have told the victimizer…
Jasmine… Symptomatology of incidents? (Someone assisted with the dictation.)
Isabella… Because it’s not, it’s not the actual incident, there’s a deeper-rooted problem.
Seth… There may be.
Isabella… Like about why the person did what they did.
Seth… Let us get there slowly. Now, you have told the victimizer that it is legitimate to continue to hurt me.
Jasmine… By saying…
Isabella… Thank you.
Jasmine… that bothered me?
Shanna… No, by accepting that apology.
Seth… Thank you, thank you for your apology.
Jasmine… Right, so now by accepting …
Isabella… You have told the victimizer that you…
Shanna… That this isn’t bothering you.
Isabella… Oh.
Seth… Now, once you have gone this far in reality you have accomplished nothing, one must then automatically find it necessary in a kind manner to diligently and in great detail explain that which has bothered you or upset you.
Now, the reason that I have made a careful distinction in how your response must be formulated is due to the fact that kindness is mandatory for you at this point in your perceptions of the other. When, for example one speaks in a hostile tone the result can never be favorable. A clear example of this is seen when the man through whom I speak spoke to Kaetorina’s father. When he exploded the man through whom I speak immediately stated you are not to speak to me in that way. Lower your voice, do not yell at me. What does this accomplish? It allowed our victimizer the leeway of calming himself down and at least attempting to justify his words. This attempt can lead to a mutual understanding one to the other. This attempt and again can lead to a mutual understanding of a difficulty that one has with the other. By allowing your points of why you were hurt to be digested by our victimizer you have then at least opened the door to understanding. The moment this door has been opened you move from darkness into the clear light of prosperity. Now I am not saying that the first person will agree with you. They do not have to.
Jasmine… You mean the victimizer?
Seth… They do not have to.
Now, you have presented the simplistic idea of why I have been bothered by your actions. Their apology if there is going to be one can now be understood by both parties.
Stephanie… Because now both are involved.
Seth… Not necessarily, remember the victimizer may never have moved into darkness. Do not confuse the two.
Stephanie… Enters the light.
Seth… No, he was never in the darkness. When one covers over, when one moves to darkness themselves because you are allowing somebody to hurt you or bother you and you say to them, “You know you hurt me.” And they say, “I’m so sorry, I didn’t mean to hurt you. I didn’t mean it that way.” You have given them permission to do this again and again but if you clearly state, you did this and here are the reasons that it hurt me or bothered me. You have now moved from darkness into light.
Jasmine… So, the whole difference is the explanation of the why it bothers you?
Seth… The “why” is where forgiveness can be accepted. You are presenting the facts as to why someone did something to bother you. All you are saying is that hurt me, I’m so sorry and what does that mean?
Now, it is the understanding that you must gain and the ability, the key word here is and underline this and the ability to immediately underline the word immediately twice, formulate a clear and adequate response in a kind manner to allow forgiveness to occur. You have explained what hurts you. You have made sure that the other person understands why you were bothered or hurt or annoyed and then if they say, I did not realize that, please forgive me; you have now not given them permission to do it again. It is the not doing it again that forgiveness means something. Yes, Isabella?
Isabella… But how can you even go get to this place if you don’t even know that you are the victim?
Seth… If somebody says something to you that hurts or bothers you.
Isabella… No, I am talking about doesn’t say anything at all.
Seth… Then of course you don’t know.
Isabella… That’s what I mean so then so then how can you even come to this place of forgiveness.
Seth… Because if somebody does something that bothers you, you’re aware of it. Are you not?
Isabella… No, I didn’t, I was not aware that Jacob was doing what he was doing, no.
Seth… You knew that something was wrong.
Isabella… I wasn’t a hundred percent sure that there was something wrong.
Seth… Look at your actions. Your actions over the course of an innumerous time span, large time span.
Isabella… My reactions as in regards to?
Seth… Your own actions: how you perceived.
Isabella… Okay.
Seth… Do you understand?
Isabella… Yes, yes, yes.
Seth… You knew something was not correct.
Isabella… Okay.
Seth… And you, if you knew something was not correct what did you do about it?
Isabella… Nothing.
Seth… So, if you did nothing you covered it over, you remained in the darkness and did not understand what was going on.
Isabella… Yeah.
Seth… So, what do you not understand?
Isabella… Ah… how could I, but if I wasn’t aware, I didn’t know what it was that was bothering me.
Seth… But you knew something was wrong.
Isabella… So, then what was I supposed to do?
Seth… You were supposed to explore what could be wrong.
Isabella… With him?
Seth… With anyone, friends, relatives, a therapist, your parents.
Shanna… Something was bothering you inside.
Seth… Something is bothering you inside.
Isabella… Right.
Seth… Is it better to keep it hidden or show it to the light of day?
Isabella… Right, I hear you.
Seth… What is your answer?
Isabella… Obviously, there is a choice.
Jasmine… So after, I’m sorry. Could you explain what bothered you and why you are hurt and the victimizer acknowledges what you’ve said, then it won’t happen again?
Seth… Then you have not given the victimizer permission to do it again. Not that it may cure the problem, but you have already made your case of this hurts me.
Stephanie… If you’ve never done that before?
Seth… Correct.
Stephanie… Okay, why is saying thank you to an apology…
Seth… What does the thank you mean?
Stephanie… Well not that I would do that but… I’m just saying.
Frank… (Laughing and kidding.) Not that I’d ever do that!
Stephanie… (Laughing.) Shut up.
Seth… If somebody said to you, I’m really sorry…
Stephanie… About all the hurts you just said to me?
Seth… Right. What did it mean?
Stephanie… Okay, nothing.
Seth… So therefore, because you haven’t explained what hurt you.
Stephanie… Okay.
Seth… You said this bothered me, don’t do that again. Oh, I’m so sorry.
Jasmine… But you didn’t say why.
Stephanie… Okay, that’s when you don’t explain what it is.
Seth… Correct.
Isabella… Yeah, but can’t they figure out what it is? Like for example…
Frank… But you don’t know it.
Isabella… No, no, no.
Frank… You say, well…
Isabella… No, I’m talking about something completely different. Like just now, I was talking to George about, he was talking to me about the “me thing” and he was like, I’ll just, I’ll text you what it is. And the next thing I knew he was gone so he hung up on me. So then after he texted me the thing I wrote back, thanks and oh yeah by the way thanks for hanging up on me.
Seth… Was that in a kind and just manner? Or was that sarcastic and mean?
Isabella… (Giggled a little bit.) It was sarcastic and mean.
Seth… Then therefore you have now given him permission to do it again because you did not say why it bothered you.
Isabella… Okay so now if I call him back and I say to him, I just want you to know that it bothered me that you hung up on me and he says, oh I’m sorry.
Jasmine… You have to explain why.
Seth… Why did it bother you?
Isabella… But isn’t that self explanatory?
Seth… No, it is not self explanatory.
(There was a lot of talk among the group going back and forth.)
Isabella… But it’s mean…
Shanna… It’s so not self explanatory.
Isabella… About hanging up on you?
Seth… He may not look at it as if was something wrong.
Isabella… Oh, alright.
Jasmine… You have to figure out why it bothered you.
Seth… You’ve made an assumption…
Frank… Plus, he may not feel that he hung up on you. I didn’t hang up on you, we were done.
Isabella… He didn’t say bye!
Shanna… My husband never say’s, bye.
Isabella… Really?
Seth… What you are looking for here in the largest sense of all is for somebody to take care of you. You do realize this?
Isabella… Nooo!
Seth… Yes.
Isabella… How’s it, what, I don’t understand that, okay well then maybe I shouldn’t be mad that he hung up on me.
Seth… It’s not a question of being mad, angry, annoyed, bothered or anything else.
Isabella… What does that have anything to do with taking care of me?
Jasmine… You just think, do you think that it’s just a common courtesy not to do what he did?
Isabella… Yes.
Seth… It has a larger issue in and of itself that we do not have the time or the wherewithal…
Isabella… Well, you can’t just throw that out there and…
Seth… I believe that there are others here who can explain it to…
Stephanie… I’ll explain it later.
Seth… you in a far easier manner then I would.
Stephanie… Alright, so I have a question then. If you are explaining something to the victimizer and they do not believe you…
Seth… Who says they have to?
Stephanie… Okay so they don’t agree…
Seth… But you have clearly stated your position.
Stephanie… Okay but in they are not agreeing they are not accepting responsibility.
Seth… So?
Stephanie… Then they’ll do it again.
Seth… No not necessarily because the second time they do it again you very simply say, I told you I do not like this, why did you do it again?
Jasmine… Because…
Stephanie… Em hmm, because I mean that’s, you know my father had said after this conversation, well I don’t agree but I hear what you are saying. I don’t agree though and he throws out defenses and all these other tactics.
Seth… And if he does it again you say, I told you I did not like this. Please explain to me why you did it again.
Stephanie… Em hmm.
Seth… It is your inability to follow through that keeps you in darkness. I don’t mean you as an individual necessarily, in general.
Stephanie… Right. Okay but what ends up occurring and why I would avoid it is because he bullies and attacks back.
Seth… So, when a bully… What is the best way you know to deal with a bully?
Stephanie… Well, I want to ignore him.
Seth… Oh, that will help a bully doing what?
Stephanie… Well, are you not supposed to fuel the whatever, you ignore it.
Seth… No, a bully bullies because he gets away with it. What you do is you stand up to the bully and say, you will not do this to me again because this is what is hurting me.
Stephanie… The very idea that that’s how he becomes when I bring up whatever.
Seth… Correct.
Frank… Of course, he is going to up the ante.
Stephanie… Right because he wants me to shut up.
Seth… Correct.
Frank… And then when it doesn’t work…
Seth… He backs down because he has to.
Frank… You just have to keep on meeting the ante.
Stephanie… Right, see what he is going to do is, how dare you not… how dare you doubt me. How dare you put me in this position!
Frank… Right. That’s an attack and I don’t appreciate it.
Stephanie… So right then and there…
Seth… Right then and there, stop! If you hear this as an attack and that’s what you are telling me, I want you to know that bothers me and I will not listen to this. I cannot deal with this because I am not attacking you.
Stephanie… Right and so, so he is going to then yell back and that’s when I will hang up on him.
Seth… No, you are going to say this with kindness and consideration.
Stephanie… No kindness, why would I be kind?
Seth… Because he cannot hear you unless; unless you’d like to get into a shouting match which is completely reasonable for you.
Stephanie… But he can’t hear anyway, he’s busy yelling.
Seth… Once he stops yelling look at what the man through whom I speak did last night. He was being bullied.
Stephanie… Em hmm.
Seth… And he very clearly said you will not do this to me. You will not yell at me. I will not stand for this.
Stephanie… I mean he’ll say to me, I’m your father and that’s not yada, yada, yada, I’m going to you know that’s not how you act…
Seth… And what does the mean?
Stephanie… to your father.
Seth… Why not?
Stephanie… That’s just what he learned. You don’t act that way to your father.
Seth… And therefore, you are going to say you will not act this way towards me because I will not accept it.
Stephanie… Em hmm. I mean like you said before in the lecture I…
Seth… This is still part of the lecture…
Stephanie… No what I am saying…
Seth… We’ve not taken a break yet.
Stephanie… I know, I’m saying that was normal for me that to respect that…
Seth… So, your knowledge is that you will respect being bullied, you will respect being victimized and I would rather put my head under a rock and allow myself to be miserable because that’s what you have done.
Jasmine… Many of us have done that.
Stephanie… Right, I mean it is the idea that you know you listen to your father. You don’t talk… I really did learn that I guess…
Seth… I’m not questioning what you learned I’m just giving you…
Stephanie… You don’t challenge your father…
Seth… It’s not a question of challenging. It is a question of saying; this is what you are doing that’s bothering me and here are the reasons why it bothers me. Now if you say this in a kind and quiet manner his yelling and bravado must cease. It must cease because he cannot hear you. When someone yells at you, when someone is angry at you, you whisper. You force them to listen.
Stephanie… Like a kid with a tantrum.
Seth… Correct.
Stephanie… Em hmm.
Seth… I believe at this point we shall take a break.
Let us continue: Obviously this is a difficult idea for each of you. If necessary, we can spend an extra session or two or three on this forgiveness idea if we need to. Are there any questions?
Stephanie… So, once you explain to the victimizer exactly what has always been bothering you and they say, okay I hear you, but I don’t agree then I can forgive them?
Seth… You can forgive them because you have not given them permission to do it again. They don’t have to agree with you.
Stephanie… Okay.
Seth… The object of forgiveness is to say, I know you did what you did bothered me, now you understand the reasons why it bothered me.
Stephanie… Em hmm.
Seth… You don’t have to agree with me you may have felt that you were innocent.
Stephanie… So, the forgiveness can only last as long as that the damage isn’t redone?
Seth… And if the damage is redone what is your recourse then?
Stephanie… Right so the next day the damage is redone now I am not in a forgiveness place, and I say don’t you ever do that…
Seth… I told you that you were not to do this to me again…
Stephanie… Okay.
Seth… and you have. The more you continue to do this the further apart we become…
Stephanie… Okay.
Seth… Is that what you want?
Stephanie… Okay and then he’ll say whatever, okay I understand let’s say and then forgiveness would start again for me?
Seth… Start again and if he does it three weeks later you are going to say why are you doing it again?
Stephanie… Em hmm and I have to be very straight with what…
Seth… What is bothering you.
Stephanie… With what bothers me…
Seth… Correct.
Stephanie… and get reaccustomed…
Seth… Correct.
Stephanie… to being in touched with it because it is so routinely…
Seth… It’s so easy for any not just you or for any individual to cover it up. And that is one of the things you must all write down. It is easy for any individual to cover up that which is bothering them.
Betty… But isn’t it forgiveness when it doesn’t bother you?
Seth… No, forgiveness is not necessarily when it doesn’t bother you that would be the end of a line of study. But if I do something Betty, that hurts or bothers you…
Betty… Yeah.
Seth… and you just say, well okay, then all you’ve done is cover it over and given me permission to do it again.
Betty… Yeah, that part I understand. I’m moving more towards my understanding of forgiveness.
Seth… No, forgiveness is not when it doesn’t bother you. Forgiveness means that you have explained it fully so that the other individual has become aware of that which hurts you.
Betty… Right.
Seth… And if they do not again then of course you have succeeded.
Betty… Right but if they did do it again…
Seth… Then you repeat, I have spoken to you about this before, why are you doing it again? And then they have a very legitimate reason or not legitimate reason but at least you have opened the lines of discussion and moved from darkness into light.
Betty… Right but I guess forgiveness for me would be at some point that I just accept that this person is whatever and then it doesn’t bother me. It’s just who…
Seth… That would not occur because if every time you saw someone and they turned around and said to you, you are nothing but a slutty person (Group is beginning to laugh.) who has no idea what their job is and you are totally incompetent (More laughing.) in what you are doing. Do you think you are ever going to forgive that person no matter how many times they say this?
Betty… No, but I would get into asking them to explain where this…
Seth… And so, they explain it to you, and they keep on doing it? You’re not going to forgive them for this, and you are not going to be not bothered by this. It is the not being bothered portion that you must eliminate from your repertoire of feelings.
(There was some discussion between Isabella and Stephanie about asking the following question.)
Seth… You had one?
Isabella… So, if I were to say to you that it bothers me when you cut me off when I’m asking a question in regards to the session, the lecture but you don’t cut other people off when they jump in and ask questions. And it bothers me because I feel as though my question isn’t as important or in your opinion as somebody else’s. Now I am expressing to you why I’m bothered.
Seth… Correct.
Isabella… Why I felt like I was, that you made me a victim.
Seth… Correct.
Isabella… And now what’s the… now what?
Seth… My response to you would be that many times in our series of lectures you tend to monopolize, not on purpose because you have obvious interest to what you are saying or heard that sessions for at least for you, you would like a lot more information. Now I am not cutting you off nor am I not saying that you will not be allowed to ask your questions but there are many instances where from my research the others although the question may be close to being the same…
Isabella… It’s exactly the same.
Seth… May be close to being the same the lecture is better served at times by allowing others to speak. Not that your statements are not important to me, they are and because your statements are important to me that I do listen to you. Remember your perceptions in what is going on here are vastly delayed from my point of view. I have not to be confusing to you but since time has no relevance for me, I have already seen this lecture and done this lecture for you as an individual or anyone who sits around this table eons ago if necessary. Therefore, I am not trying to hurt you or to bother you, but you must understand that at times my research allows me to understand that the question even if identical is better served by someone else. And I am not trying to hurt you or to disturb you, but it is a fact.
Isabella… That means… okay.
Jasmine… Now can you look for forgiveness?
Isabella… No! (Stephanie laughs.) Because that, that is hurtful. I mean why would it be better served the exact same question, why would it be better served by somebody else?
Seth… It is better served…
Isabella… That makes me feel like I’m like an idiot.
Seth… No, it is better… that is the way you may take that but that is certainly…
Isabella… Well, that is exactly, I mean if it’s the exact same question why would it be better served by, if someone will ask the exact same questions?
Frank… But if I, he doesn’t answer one of my questions and then somebody else asks it in a similar way what’s the difference? You’re saying that he is specifically saying it’s only your questions that he is not going to answer.
Isabella… No, he shushes me. Like he will say to me, no and then somebody else will jump in…
Frank… I’ve been…
Isabella… at the exact same time.
Frank… And I have been shushed as well. But the fact is you ask the most questions.
Isabella… Okay.
Frank… So, there is more of an opportunity for you to be asked to hold. Often, I feel that you ask questions prematurely instead of allowing the material to unfold; that your question will be answered. You’re not as patient as you might want to be.
Isabella… Em hmm.
Frank… And so, I think at different times when it serves session it helps and it’s not…
Isabella… But if everybody else is able to get an answer to their question.
Frank… You mean today, this moment?
Isabella… Yes, and I talking about now…
Frank… But in the past in over three hundred fifty sessions, do you know how many times I’ve been told I will get to that or I will answer that later or this. (Frank made a gesture holding a hand up to indicate wait.)
Isabella… No, we all have. (Some laughter.)
Frank… So… well?
Isabella… No, I’m not saying, I’m talking specifically today. Like why it would be exactly…
Frank… Because today it was better served in terms of the material and the material is not only just for you, you know, there are five or six of us around the table. (Not to mention whoever may be reading this.)
Stephanie… And also, if there is a sense of being monopolizing not that that’s bad but if you’re always asking stuff for yourself…
Isabella… It wasn’t a question for myself.
Stephanie… No, I know, I am just saying if that happens a lot.
Isabella… But that wasn’t at all about what it was going to be.
Stephanie… I understand but in general let’s say if there is that monopolizing thing which is not bad, I’m just saying that idea maybe and if it is pertaining to you, you know maybe it will be perceived as not generalized to the whole group. So maybe people might listen differently. I mean I am just guessing; I don’t know.
Shanna… (Said something that was not clear initially as she and Stephanie were talking at the same time.) I think what happened was you were asking a question that we were all also thinking in our heads…
Stephanie… See I don’t even remember the question.
Shanna… Seth was finishing his thought then he shushed you so he could finish his thought but everybody else came out with the same question while that was happening.
Stephanie… And sometimes I think it is not a perfect whatever like I think it…
Frank… It was also mid-sentence.
Stephanie… It was mid-sentence, right.
Frank… You’re asking a question when there was like going to be five more words left.
Isabella… Yeah.
Frank… You’re asking your question before he finishes.
Isabella… He stopped. He went like this (Showing a gesture.) I started to ask, he stopped me and Stephanie jumped in and he wasn’t even done talking either! And then Jasmine jumped in with the exact question.
Shanna… Right well, that’s what happened.
Isabella… That’s what happened today.
Frank… Well, they should have been shushed too! Damn-it!
Isabella… Well, no, I am just saying like why was it okay for them to jump in while he was in mid-sentence and he answered that and then he went into a whole thing?
Stephanie… My question actually wasn’t, I wanted to understand what he just said. It wasn’t a question, separate. It was in addition to what he was just saying.
Isabella… Yeah, but that’s exactly what mine was.
Stephanie… Ay…
Frank… And do you understand that it also speaks to the idea of being taken care of?
Isabella… I was just talking specifically in relationship to today about why I, he said if you feel like you were victimized that you should open the door and ask your questions, so I asked my question how does that have anything to do with me being taken care of? I was curious why it was okay for them to jump in and ask their question when it wasn’t okay for me? That doesn’t have anything to do with me being taken care of. I’m curious that is why I asked. It has nothing to do with me being taken care of.
Stephanie… Alright you got your answer, and you don’t like it.
Seth… Are there any other questions?
Stephanie… Yes, is it true because we are so used to covering over and usually, I would say for most people years and years are there many times… are there times where the individual is not aware of the cover when they are being victimized?
Seth… You like percentages.
Stephanie… Okay.
Seth… Ninety-nine-point nine percent of the individuals cover it over and are never aware of the problem.
Stephanie… Okay so my concern and question is in relationship of that…
Frank… You serious about that (Percentage)?
Seth… How many people when something occurs that they do not like and say well! And they…
Frank… And that’s been a major modality of mine.
Stephanie… Alright, so my concern with that is the obvious ones I guess I will recognize. I’m concerned about all the victimizations that will occur that I am going to allow…
Seth… The more you become use to getting to the root of the darkness…
Stephanie… Okay.
Seth… the more you will be able to recognize that which disturbs you.
Stephanie… Because it could be everything.
Seth… And it probably will be for awhile. It is the same idea that Isabella has when she talks to me and believes that I am making a victim out of her. I would appreciate that more when she learns to understand and states this routinely, not only to myself but to everyone and when she gets use to the idea of stating this it will occur to her that perhaps she may be underreacting to certain situations or overreacting or not being sensitive enough or becoming more sensitive than she would be to any specific area of difficulty. You cannot be aware because your viewpoints, your egocentric notion of the physical plane is limited in and of itself. You cannot be aware of everything because that is ridiculous. But what you can become aware of is the routine of stating, I’m not comfortable, that is bothering me, that hurts me. And when you become aware of that and learn to handle the injustice if you will, in a fair and just manner, then you are able to move from darkness to light and learn to forgive the other individual. You do not have to agree with them, you have to understand, and you have made your case in a fair and just manner. Do you understand?
Stephanie… Yeah, I do but you know I’m still concerned that from this point forward because I have opened a whole can of worms here and he’s angry about it because he doesn’t like anyone to point a finger at him that he is going to then because he is all about himself want to belittle what I have presented…
Seth… And if he does and you clearly state your position, he can accept it or reject it. That is not your concern. Your concern is you. You are trying to determine how he will react. My concern and the purpose of this lecture in asking and telling you about forgiveness is for you to understand where forgiveness starts.
Stephanie… No, but it starts with me being aware of what’s bothering me.
Seth… Correct. It doesn’t mean anything else other than that. Stop! That’s it. (Forgiveness starts with what is bothering one. Such an important point! F.N.)
Stephanie… Right. So then as soon as I recognize it if he’s refusing to accept and continues to try and fight his case…
Seth… Why are you doing this? You know that this has already been stated that it bothers me.
Stephanie… Right and if it continues I could, I would stop talking to him.
Seth… You say, I cannot go on with this idea because you’re not at least giving me the courtesy of paying attention to what I have said. When you can I would like to continue this discussion with you.
Stephanie… Verses talking to him at all.
Seth… Correct.
Frank… Now, I have a question. This is sort of in isolation of a series of action and reaction but isn’t it most often both individuals often victimizing the other at the same time and glossing over at the same time?
Seth… Isn’t that what I stated earlier? If you do something that bothers me and I start yelling at you, what are you going to do?
Frank… If I start yelling at you now, you are victimizing me and I’m victimizing you.
Seth… I’m becoming defensive and I’m yelling at you, you’re trying to get your point across, I’m not listening to you, I’m trying to get my point across, you’re not listening to me, we both get nowhere.
Frank… So, the very first step for one of those individuals…
Seth… No, the first step is when you do something that bothers me is to immediately stop and say, excuse me that bothered me and here are the reasons why.
Frank… As opposed to yelling at the person.
Seth… Correct.
Frank… So, you don’t even go there.
Seth… Just as the man through whom I speak turns to Kaetorina’s father and says, why are you yelling at me? And he had no good answer. And since he had no good answer, he had to quiet down. And the second time it happened the man through whom I speak said, you’re still yelling at me why are you doing this? I cannot speak to you if you yell at me and so he quieted down. And even the second and third time for the same reason. It is the immediate cessation of that which is hurting you is to put a stop to it and explain the reason why. Because if you do not, why would they stop? You understand?
Frank… I do.
Seth… I am not saying this is easy because it goes against that which you routinely do.
Frank… Ah… in couples’ therapy and this happens often any suggestions in terms of stop, you know getting the referee getting them to stop?
Seth… Obviously, the object here is to stop. If you and I are having an argument someone must say stop the argument. Now if we are stopping the argument, would you please explain your side and then you have the other person say, what did you hear? Please explain to me what you heard. Fine, now tell that person what your response is. What did you hear this person say? So now they don’t have to agree with each other but what they have to do is learn to listen to each other. The problem with language is that it has so many different variables, it is one of the worst forms of communication.
Are there any other questions?
Most individuals move through darkness. They do not have the wherewithal to confront that which they need. And since they cannot confront that which they need their wants are magnified. When the light of reason is appliedand then their frustration with what they do not have becomes magnified, their wants increase and their ability to reason and to understand diminishes. One must learn to confront that which bothers them to shed light even in the darkest hours of despair. I bid you all a fond good evening.
(Session ended at approximately 10:00 P.M.)
